Let’s Talk About Native Men with Thosh Collins

Dallas Goldtooth sits down with longtime friend, photographer, wellness educator, author, and Well for Culture co-founder Thosh Collins for an honest conversation about Indigenous masculinity, healing, and accountability.

Together they explore what it means to be Native men in today's world—how colonialism and patriarchy have shaped our communities, the importance of emotional intelligence, fatherhood, ceremony, wellness, and the responsibility men have to create safer, healthier futures for everyone. Along the way, they share stories spanning more than two decades of friendship, laugh about missing teeth and movie theater popcorn, and reflect on the lifelong work of becoming better husbands, fathers, brothers, and community members.

This episode doesn't have all the answers, but it's the kind of conversation that challenges us all to grow.

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Produced by Matika Wilbur

Hosted by Dallas Goldtooth

AV Production & Editing by Pancho Francisco Sánchez

Score by Mato Wayuhi

Artwork by Kitana Connelly

Social Media Management by Mandy Yeahpau

Episode Transcript:

Hello, relatives. I'm Matika Wilbur. This is All My Relations. Welcome to Dallas's final episode of

his takeover. Dallas, hello.

Hello. I'm trying to match your timber. Hello, everybody.

Hey, what's up, everyone? This is my last episode as your guest host for All My Relations.

Hoka.

Today we're talking about indigenous men. We thought of titling this,

what the fuck is up with indigenous men? And then we thought, should we really say that with your

smiling photo on the cover? But, you know, I think this is a really incredible topic.

A, this is the first time all my relations has ever had two men just talking on our podcast. I

think this is a conversation that needs to happen amongst our men because we keep saying, you know,

in our communities, that we need our men to step up. We need our men to take care of our women.

We need to restore our sacred roles in our communities.

But what do indigenous boys need to hear before they become wounded men?

And I think... This is a really great opportunity to open the door for that conversation.

I know there's lots of organizations that are already doing this work, right? And Thosh is already

doing much of this healing work in his own community, leading men's wellness circles and doing that

work in his community. So tell me, Dallas, why did you want to have this conversation? You're the

one that said, I want to talk about this. I want to talk about men. No. Yes. Look,

as somebody who is dedicated to the idea of like a future for all of us, a future that's better and

healthier for all of us, in order to imagine that I have to have a conversation about what are we

doing as men or how is the system of patriarchy holding us back from achieving those dreams?

And so I wanted to have this conversation. That's what this episode is about with my good brother,

Thosh Collins, who I've known for many years. from since we were like 16,

17 years old to now. And I've seen him grow and evolve as a young man,

to a father, to an educator, to a speaker. And I just wanted to take an opportunity for us to have

a conversation. I love Thash. I don't know if people know this, but Thash went on the road with me.

He helped me with Project 562 many, many times. You know, he came and he's been supportive of my

work. I love Chelsea. I love her writing. I love that they can do a thousand pushups. In my mind,

like those two. are just out there in the desert, like doing squats and pushups and growing corn

and helping people in every way they can, you know, every day. I know Thosh really though,

secretly is probably, you know, eating chips and drinking energy drinks, but you know. It is what

it is. He talks about it on the podcast. But I love everything that they stand for and all the work

that they've done in community and that they keep showing up and doing it. I'm a huge fan of their

book, Welfare Culture. We've had them on the podcast before talking about it. Chelsea has a new

book coming out. Hopefully we'll have her on the podcast to talk about that. So I think that it's

incredible to just be supportive of other Indigenous creatives.

But I want to go back to this topic for a second. Dallas and and think through who really taught

you what a man was supposed to be you know I learned as many of us we learn what it means to be a

man from our fathers or uncles or native men who carry themselves in different ways and we've seen

in our life. But we also learn it from TV and sports and expressions of the military and religious

and ceremonial spaces.

It's reinforced time after time through all aspects of what is seen as American culture. And of

course, I'm speaking from the perspective of being within the settler state of the U.S. But I

could say throughout the world, we are taught. time after time, what it means to be a man from an

American lens. I carry all of that. I think that's a good starting point in this,

is that I, right now, as Dallas Goldtooth, as a 43-year-old father of six and a husband,

and I'm doing my very best to be accountable to my family and those I love by being as quote

-unquote best of a man as I can be, I still carry the learned...

lessons of what it means to be toxic. I think that's the thing. But masculinity is not inherently

toxic. There's a balance that we have to try to find between femininity and masculinity,

that sacred femininity and sacred masculinity, and kind of walk forward with that. Yeah,

that's not easy. It's not easy. No, and there can also be toxic femininity or just generally toxic,

right? Or just assholes. You're just an asshole. Or just intoxicated.

One can be all these things. Toxic masculinity is the misaligned or maladaptive expression of...

patriarchy's expectations about what it means to be a man. It's not a disease in itself.

It's a symptom of disconnection. It's what happens when boys are taught that domination is

strength, that vulnerability is a weakness, and relationship is secondary to power.

I think it shows up as anger, as addiction, as are people having a disconnection from body or an

inability to apologize. I think it manifests itself in...

mistreatment of our women, of our queer relatives. We say all of these things not because we want

to pick on men or call out all of my bad boyfriends in the past,

but because, you know, we want to believe that we can undo the messiness of colonialism,

the destruction of patriarchy. bring ourselves into a new future that's somewhat better,

right? That's the goal. And that's why we're having this conversation. Because we hope to imagine

and otherwise, because we want to believe in a future where there's respect for our women and our

young men growing up, you know, with the ability to identify with their emotions and express their

emotions and that our men have the courage to be accountable. Accountability is a central part of

what... to be human. It doesn't matter where you're at, whether you identify as a man, as a woman

or anyone else on the spectrum, original instructions as indigenous peoples have encouraged us

first and foremost to be good relatives. It's a perfect segue into this podcast.

That's why this podcast exists, because we want to explore how we can return to that because we

know that we are made by our kinship systems. We know that in order for us to live well,

it has to be rooted in our responsibility, accountability and reciprocity in our communities.

Patriarchy. is a structure that is all-encompassing. It's timely for us to openly talk about it,

but even more so, I would say it's timely for men to openly talk about it because women have been

talking about it. We done said!

Well, let's do it. Let's go!

What is Indigenous masculinity in 2026 now? We have an idea, we know from oral tradition,

or the old timers tell us, you know, it was this way, this was back in the day, they did this, and

then the influence of Western patriarchy came and it changed. You hear these things too, but

sometimes we truly don't know what that was, how they operated, what their etiquette was like,

how much of original forms of male-led Indigenous patriarchy overlapped with Western.

The overarching theme that most of us Native men should be discerning between what is the influence

of that, what has infiltrated our minds from Western patriarchal ideology and behaviors and

attitude into Indigenous masculinities, Indigenous roles of men, kinship, because we do know that

ours was more fluid. We have matriarchs in Native country, we have egalitarian systems, systems

that were male-led where... probably, compared to Western patriarchy,

be considered more egalitarian or even matrilineal in some cases. But I'm always checking myself.

Am I doing things in the right way as a man in marriage, in fatherhood, and in community?

And when I'm talking about community, of course, it's first and foremost, like, in Salt River.

Like, am I doing my role? What's expected of me that I'll hear people talk about, like, the men's

role? Am I doing that?

How am I to occupy? This is Dallas Goldtooth. And for today's episode, I'm going to be visiting

with Thosh Collins, a good brother of mine, but also a comrade who is willing to have a

conversation around masculinity within Indian country. And I think it's really important in this

moment, as we are actively talking about the world that we want to build as Native peoples in the

future, we also have to have a conversation around how do men show up in those spaces and how are

we trying to address the issues. Issues. What are the issues? Come on. What's the issues?

We're going to talk about masculinity, manhood, and all the crazy stuff that comes with it. I've

known Thash for a number of years, for a while, and we'll get into that,

but I just wanted to introduce him properly. Thash is a photographer, a community health educator,

a dad, and co-founder of Wealth for Culture, the indigenous wellness movement that he built with

his partner, Chelsea Lugar. Their work brings ancestral teachings into modern day life through a

holistic model. that they call The Seven Circles. It's a framework for living well in body,

mind, spirit, community, and relationship. And it also happens to be the name of a book that they

recently published. The book is called The Seven Circles, Indigenous Teachings for Living Well.

It's a touchstone for Native readers who are reclaiming wellness through movement, food, rest,

ceremony, connection, and mindset. Bosh grew up on Salt River Res in Arizona. and grounds his life

work in cultural practices, physical teachings, and spiritual strengths of his people. And part of

that work is having conversations about masculinity. Thash, welcome to all my relations.

Thank you, brother. Thanks for having me and just honored to come in and chat about something that

I know you got a lot of words to share on this topic. And yeah, much respect. Looking forward to

this. So thanks again. Oh, all right. The thing about Thash, and I'm going to put you on the spot

right here, is I feel like you have two personas. You have the camera persona and you have the off

-camera persona. I want the off-camera persona here because I noticed I do this too. I'm calling

myself out there. We get kind of chiefy. Yeah, we chief it up a little bit. We chief it up a little

bit and then we start using big words. Make it sound more edumacated. Then it really is and make it

more complicated than it's supposed to be. In that case, we got to switch places. And so that way

they can see my missing tooth. They can show them extra res. Oh, look at that. Traditional. Dude, I

never noticed that. You are missing a tooth. Look at that. Yeah, I broke this tooth, man. I bit

into a freaking piece of pita bread and it cracked my tooth. So I had to get it removed. So I'm

getting, I'm waiting to get another one. But every time I always laugh and smile, Chelsea's like,

ew, don't laugh at me with your missing tooth. Piece of piece of pita bread. I'm going to use that

to practice. calling you out here Thosh brother brother we'll call you out brother um take it in a

good way i didn't take this in a good way in traditional way you post a lot about the food you eat

on instagram but dude i've seen you eat fries a burger yeah i've seen you get down some unhealthy

foods at the same time i think that's that's legit but like yeah i guess I don't know.

I don't want to question it. I just want to call you out and say, this dude isn't as healthy as you

think he is, everybody. I just want to put that out there. You know, I recently started posting

more about that. I posted some production stills of me on the Welcome to Dairy.

I'm in the whole warrior regalia. I'm drinking energy drink. I'm slamming energy drink. I say,

always come prepared. Or I posted about that, too. I was on a hunting trip last week, and it was

just hot. I wasn't seeing nothing. The deer were bedded down early. Everybody was having a hard

time. down from glassing the mountain and I'm just like I always that's the time for sure like I'll

eat I'll consistently eat like my favorite gummies is the sour Scandinavian swimmers from from

Trader Joe's shout out to them I'll get like if I if I have a four-day hunt I'll get four maybe

five of those bags to me I just think like okay health food is subjective You know what I mean?

And if I'm in overall good health and I'm eating whole food most of the time, I can afford to sit

there and I'm going to have pizza. I started posting about that regularly, you know, posting about

drinking energy drinks and stuff like that. Because I just assumed people would know, but then I'll

come around and people think like, oh, they'll get all shy because they got something. I'm like,

shoot, I drink that too. I eat that too all the time. You know what I mean? I just don't eat it on

a daily or weekly basis. That's all. But shoot, pizza, a whole tub of popcorn when I take the girls

to a movie. When I take the girls to the movie, it's not just for them. It's for my ass to sit

there. need a big-ass tub of popcorn with butter. I don't care if it's fake butter, you know? No,

I mean, that's legit. I appreciate that. You and I, just to name it, are in a unique position.

We're both very public figures in Indian country, but also we're public figures who often speak

around masculinity or have our discussions about it or posts about it. That's one of the reasons

why I wanted to bring you on this podcast here. There obviously is a lot of conversation around

patriarchy, but... feel like there's not enough conversation amongst men of how we define

masculinity. And how are we actively engaging with patriarchy or not engaging?

And I think it's essential because I think it's important for us. It's a form of accountability,

right? It's a form of like, hey, we have to have this conversation as community, but then also what

are we doing amongst each other? How are we holding each other accountable? What I'm getting to is

how has your internal dialogue around masculinity informed your work?

to this point with the men's group i do back in salt river you know a men's grassroots group i'm

just started this but i'm slowly throwing in things as we have a circle we're warming up and i'm

talking about things like you the power the physical power and prowess that you have as a man it

should not be used to be inflicted upon on on women children elderly people um two-spirit lgbtq

people all of our relatives your responsibility is to control your power. I'm trying to throw these

things in there to get them used to this idea. And even defining it, I just don't feel like enough

men even know to start with the roots of misogyny. Then we make our way up and then we are talking

about, you know, the violence and the heinous acts that's committed. Men will shake their heads

off. Ah, that's the way that guy is. that's just the way he's always been they blow it off we got

to get past that how i don't know yeah so i'm learning this in the same in the same way as you and

everyone else and if people drop it in the comment section you know what i mean we need we're to me

i've been out there and trying to get men to care about these things after it's hard and you get

wore out it takes us setting the terms of how we relate with each other out the gate yeah I like to

believe that I put out a certain type of persona of like, these are the type, this is the standard,

this is the type of men I want to interact with. Right. Yeah. I want to engage with you at a level

that is equitable, but also a level that is consistent with my values. Yeah. And if you don't like

that, hey, you know what I mean? Yeah. You can't, I can't run, I can't be around and hang around

and support you if you're not talking about these things as well, or if you're not. looking inward

and looking at holding, you're not just painting the picture of Western patriarchy that's hurting

us. It's our own men. If guys don't like that, I feel the same way. That's the company I keep.

It's up to us to think about and have a vision for what is manhood for me. How do I act in

community? What sort of social etiquette do I abide by? What are my cultural values, my moral

values as a man that I've learned through history, but what are the ones I've created for myself?

And what are these morals that I hold other men to in terms of standard? And how do I respond to

that? We talked about that a little bit earlier, but I think that a man should have those things.

He should be pondering those things and developing those things. You know what I mean? Like his

goals, like his physical health. his involvement in community and his involvement in,

in the passing of like indigenous knowledge and, and how a man carries himself, a native man

carries himself amongst all those, those, those three circles that sort of overlap. Like, and, and

what are the things that the modes and the parameters he needs to maintain his,

his spiritual, his physical, his intellectual and his emotional wellbeing. It really speaks to

what. emotional intelligence, right? Developing one's own emotional intelligence, which I think is

one of the most overlooked things. I think if there's any message that I want to encourage native

men, young men, is go to therapy. I started going to therapy and it really,

really helped me. But one of the biggest parts of it is just developing a sense of emotional

intelligence. And what that really, for me, how I define it, there's many different ways you can

define it. It's just like, why am I doing the things I'm doing? It's as simple as that. I find

relevance in my spirituality. I'm Dakota. We practice pipeways, Sundance ways.

That's our way. A major part of our spirituality is the intention.

Why are you here? If you're Sundancing, why are you Sundancing? What's your desired outcome? If

you're going in the sweat lodge, why are you coming into the sweat lodge? The intention is the

active part where you have to question, why are you here? Why are you doing the things you're

doing? What actions are you taking? And I feel like that's the part that we need to cultivate,

really, and create that space for, and to create the confidence within all of us,

I think all of us, but especially our Native men, to have that active engagement of what we're

doing. What did you personally have to unlearn about manhood to grow into the father you are or the

husband you are?

I think regulating my anger and regulating or letting go of thinking that things need to go in the

way that I think they need to go. You know what I mean? Your ego, sometimes as a father or a

husband or a man, thinks that things should go this way. We should do it this way. We should do it

that way. The kids should respond like this. The kids should sit down and quiet and be still during

this and during this. So you have these expectations. And when things don't get your way, I used to

get irritable. And then, like, Chelsea would, you know, kind of get on to me or other people. Or I

would watch other men that were worse, and they would basically throw, like, man fits. And I'd be

looking at them, oh, damn. I don't want to look like that. That's, like, shameful to be displaying

that you can't control your emotions. And you're mad, ah, throwing things around. Ah, they want me

to do this. They said I can't do that. And you see these all the time in old men. And I think to

myself, I look at that and I'm like, that's not how I want to act. That's not how I want to be

viewed. And so I had to learn to hold myself accountable and take care of my emotions. And that's

why I do certain things that I do, movement, meditate, pray, do ceremony to calm your emotions so I

can be a little bit more calculated and calm about how I respond to the world and letting go of

thinking things need to be in the way that I think. that they should go.

Because I think I have this, sometimes I think I got to figure it out. We'll do this and do that.

Everyone do that. We'll be good. We'll be on a healing journey. And things don't go that way.

And you have to realize that you got to be able to be malleable and be flexible,

I think. To give up control, to give up almost in a way to relinquish a certain type of power.

I have to give so much love and credit to my wife who helped me.

in this journey to be where I'm at today, to be the man I am. I would not be there. I literally

would not be in this room. I know for a fact. Same. I would not be here. I would not be speaking to

these issues if it wasn't for the dialogue and the growth with my wife.

Which requires that emotional intelligence to learn. It does. But also, I want to acknowledge that

it shouldn't have been up to her for me to get into that journey. That's how it works, is that we

put that burden upon women to carry that labor. I hate that part of like, that's the way it

naturally was there. But I feel like I also want to take ownership. Like I actively chose like,

okay, if I want to be a better husband, I want to be a better man. I want to be a brother, better

brother. I have to make some changes and I have to grow, allow myself to grow. And so shout out to

like my, my, my wife to Chelsea to help us in that journey.

Cause I feel like. It's getting to a place where I can then take on that burden and be like, all

right, talk to the other younger men. That's our responsibility. We're carrying it forward and

saying, all right, how do we redefine what it means to be Dakota, to be... Autumn and then

peeposhes are other people. Yeah. That's a big part of this dialogue. Yeah, it is. I love that.

And I want to jump in and echo some of those comments. I was just saying that the other day when I

was working with the men's group out there in Aquasustine, and I was saying that the fire that we

carry as men, it's not for... It's not up to the women in our lives to help take care of that fire

and help take care of our emotions, that we have to learn to do that ourselves and for each other.

We rely upon, sure, we rely upon those that we love to help take care of us and to help provide

love and the things that we need to flourish and thrive, but it's not up to them to regulate our

emotions. They shouldn't walk around on eggshells because they don't want to make somebody mad or

they don't want to make somebody jealous or they don't want to make me, you know, feel

uncomfortable or emasculated. That's not their burden. That's what, you know, I always figure out.

Same thing with my daughters, right? As a girl dad is that for me, it's not up to my daughters and

watching their emotions and how they respond to me.

It's not up to them to regulate me and how I should be parenting with a certain intensity.

That's for me as a responsibility as a man. And I check myself all the time. I have to acknowledge

the same as you is that I literally wouldn't be sitting here if it wasn't for Chelsea. I had to ask

to come over here. I was on another trip. And I says, hey, I really want to go to this podcast.

Dallas is doing a takeover of all my relations. It'd be awesome. And I wanted him on my podcast,

but he invited me here. So can I do that? And she said, oh, yes, of course. supports this. She

supports your work and she knows our circle. Thank you, Chelsea. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. And then

she said, and I'll show you the text, but I own every minute of your Saturday when you're home. And

sure enough, you know, and I do that and I'm okay with that. I'm okay with being told you need to

be home. I'm okay with being told there's things here. I need you to be home. I need you to do

this. But a lot of these ideas that... I have that we're talking about are realizations I've came

to while I've came into a marriage, which like you, when I think about it, this should have came to

me before. I should have been exposed to these ideas before. I should have been of certain mental

maturity and emotional maturity to have these ideas. But a lot of it I learned because of what she

expects of me or what my daughter. So I was saying on another panel, I says, I learned masculinity

from watching my mom and my wife and my daughters, not because they are masculine, but what they

expect of me as a man. I've been on a learning journey since I've been in this marriage, but I have

to acknowledge there are seeds of understanding and learnings before then, right? And it's exactly

the same of learning and watching the relationships of my mom was in.

Deeply impacted me. I have two dads. I had a stepdad and my biological father who raised me.

And deeply impacted how they were as fathers and also how are they as husbands. deeply impacted me.

So there was a seeds there, right? Of like, oh, there was an informed conversation about what I

don't want to do. Exactly. What you didn't want. That's a big thing about this is that, and I don't

want to minimize the experience of victims, but in many ways, the greatest victims of patriarchy

are men. And I say that from the bottom of my heart, because from when we were born,

we are... Our humanity is stripped to such a degree that we are left with only a small spectrum of

how to express ourselves. We're taught that we can only express ourselves in this limited

bandwidth. And all other acts, all other means to relate to the world is gone.

Our humanity is stripped down to this small, finite window where it's anger,

frustration, and fear. And that's the guiding emotion. Our actions are based on that.

We are not completely human. And we teach boys that. And those boys grew up to be men who have that

are not completely human. And so it's not just that, oh, women and children and other folks,

these folks are all the victims. We as men are the victims of our own dysfunction.

If you're really enjoying this podcast and the conversation right now, There's ways that you can

support the work that we are doing here and All New Relations has been doing. Matika, how can

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read with us give books to native youth and support this work so

this is a little anecdote and most folks remember the standing rock fight against dakota access

pipeline 2016 right i saw you there i saw tika there i saw everybody everybody's grandma all your

aunties were there all your uncles were there everybody had gone through there was a moment where

they set up a council lodge As a council, the leadership lodge, it's this big teepee,

beautiful. Folks may remember it was this long lodge, elongated teepee lodge. It was amongst the

Lakota. Amongst the Lakota. We set up a Nacha, which is a headsman, the word Nacha.

The leaders are going to come. We're going to talk about what we're going to do. I remember the

first night we went in. It was all men. That was the first thing I noticed. It was all men. So very

much an establishment of a patriarchal system. Many ways Lakota society is,

there's a strong patriarchal structure to it. But I'm going to be honest,

and this is where I might get in trouble. I'm going to get in trouble with some of my relatives

back home, but I was so frustrated. Yeah. Yep. I was so frustrated and actually came out of it

demoralized because it was just one, it was... Just a long format of pontification,

just like men, older Indian men just talking about their deeds in circles,

but not actually talking about what the issue at hand is and how are we going to find solutions to

that? And the context of that gathering, and something I heard constantly was,

this is... The Chetty shot going, this is how we did it. This is how we worked as a people.

This is how we lived. Constant historical referencing. Constant historical referencing, right? And

I had a moment of realization on the second night where I was like, I stopped going. On the second

night, I was like, all right, this is not a space that I feel is actually we're going to generate

solutions out of. But one of the reasons, the epiphany that I had was there was a lack of

acknowledging. what we don't know. The lack of humility of saying, you know what?

Let's be honest that nobody alive today knows the lived experience of how our ancestors lived in

true Indigenous governance and sovereignty. We have stories of it. We have elders who may have

memories of it from their ancestors, but we have gone the separation between how we practice our

traditional forms of governance. That gap has expanded to such a degree.

To where can we at least just acknowledge, hey, we don't know. We don't know. We have stories of

it. We have stories that we believe and trust about it, but we haven't seen it in practice.

And I think that taking that leap to acknowledge that opens up an avenue of saying, okay,

we have space to grow from that, to generate it from that. Because I think what it's sometimes used

as a way to stop growth and generation saying, oh, you're not doing it the way we're supposed to do

it. You're not doing it the way we did it. And I mentioned in the context of that men's gathering

is that that's how patriarchy in this exhibit works to help to limit our growth.

Because we believe that, oh, those who carry that knowledge are seen as men. Those that can lead

are the men. And it was a really mind-opening moment for me.

I got a similar story. And this story here, you know, it's...

To me, what you just said and what I'm about to say to me really underscores the depth to how

colonialism has really affected us and how these things have fallen through the crack. But

guaranteed, I will say before I share my story, guaranteed, I bet you if women were allowed to get

in there, it would have went in a different direction. Yes. Because immediately they would have

said, no more talking about yourself and your deeds. We're going to do A, B, C. And this is when

we're going to do it. This is who's going to do it. This is how we're going to do it. Get to work.

I bet you it would have been something like that. And so I got a similar story because down in Salt

River, Gila River area, there was a supposed spiritual leader who was sexually assaulting women and

making it accepted. And as we know, this is a real big problem all over Native country. And we got

to talk about it because we're always talking about Western patriarchal and this is very prominent

attribute within them. But it's also... within our own people in our own manner the perpetrators

doing this stuff too right so they had this figure there And the women had had enough. A group of

women got together and they said, something needs to be done. Because as you know, and other people

out there in Native country knows, it's just not that easy just to go over and start filing

reports, you know, because then they face backlash. They'll be ostracized from the community.

You know what I mean? And people will stick up. right for this person so anyways these women got

together they said okay we're gonna try we're gonna try to honor the original social structure and

they wanted they asked the men to get together after several times i think they asked finally they

said okay all right we'll get together you know we'll get a circle And, um, those women came over

and they asked me to read the letter on their behalf because they weren't allowed to go because

it's a so-called traditional structure. So only the, the men go in the, the oldest men from the,

you know, clusters of villages would, would get together and talk about this, the, the affairs and

they talk about it in a lodge. Same thing. You know, we were also male led in, in down there.

So they wanted to honor that. So the guy said, okay, but you can't be there. And it's only the men

who talk about it. So they gave me the letter. And so shout out to Missy, Renee Jackson, them down

in Gila River. They came over to me and asked, hey, you know, to share this letter and read it on

their behalf. So I read it in front of the guys there. It's like 50 guys, you know, from all across

down there. Same thing. Some of them are probably not like what I'm saying, but, you know, that's

kind of, I'm kind of past all that now. You know what I mean? You know how you are. So I shared

that letter. And so, and I gave my two cents on. But I gave just a very minimal.

I thought I would be able to get back up and share more. But out of respect for the older guys, I

let them, you know, delve into it and hoping that I thought something was going to happen. Off that

letter. Yes. Off the letter. Okay. But they went like the same thing, almost same experience. Went

in circles and they discussed over and over, well, what would we have done in those days to men who

committed these crimes? Then there was a discussion. Well, these things didn't really happen. The

men didn't really do this. Right? Because we know this is virtually non-existent because our

social structures had really, people lived by them. They honored that. And there might have been an

occasional sick person historically that did these and committed these atrocious acts. There may

have been, but for the most part, these are virtually non-existent, right? So they couldn't get

past that. And I thought to myself, well, what are you going to do as men here and now? I mean,

there was some discussion about going over there, but there was a discussion of... Well, why are

they going there anyways? Why are they going back to them? So it just was a circle, a circular

conversation where there was no path out. Giving him the benefit of the doubt. Well, let's let him

come over here and explain himself, you know, and not understanding that a person that's sick can't

be held accountable in that way. That other action has to be taken where they go over and say,

we're taking down your lodge. We're taking, we're going to forcefully take down your stuff. And

even if you want to call the police and all that, you know, we'll deal with them. But we're taking

these things from away from you because you, you violated natural law, right? There's a moment for

me in my journey that I often think about. There was this man, I heard him talking once. He was a

black man and he was talking about, he was like, I work with a lot of African-American communities

and a lot of our folks, a lot of black folks in America. Know the rules and laws because the

racialized nature of this system is in such a way that we have to know the rules and laws because

we know that they're going to be used against us. As Native people, I feel the very same way. A lot

of times growing up, we are aware of the laws and the limitations of what we can and cannot do.

That's not too much different than women have to know how men behave because their survival is

dependent upon knowing men.

I encounter that so many times when I'm giving a talk or I see a talk about masculinity, who's in

the audience? It's predominantly women. It's always women. Unless it's a closed event where, hey,

honoring men. And one of the reasons for that is that they are invested in understanding

masculinity because their survival is dependent on and it shouldn't be that way. And there's a

responsibility upon us to understand that nature of that, of like, oh crap, that's fucking heavy.

It starts with conversations like guys like us, like that can go into like men's circles and we can

talk and men will listen to us. You know what I mean? We can come in and lead, lead a group, lead a

conversation. I'm trying to do that through a lot of the workshops I'm doing is normalizing. Like

I've been, I'll be up in front of a big audience and I'm talking about, I'm talking about sexual

assault, talking about consent and getting, there'll be like 12 or 13 year olds sitting right

there. Then there's 30, 40, 50 year olds, 60 year old guys in back there. There's women, there's

grandmothers there. And I think that. That... This is where it starts. We have to put this on

people in a very, of course, in a gentle way, you know, in a way that our youth are going to begin

to kind of have some idea and a grasp of it. But we can get the ball rolling if we start to

normalize and talk about these things and talk about earlier where we're, you know, talking about,

you know, how sex was probably more is more accepted, you know, and living in the close quarters

that our people had did. And of course, the residential school era had traumatized so much of our

people and it's become a stigma to not. discuss these things. I think that we have to just begin to

talk about these things in a healthy manner once again. And we got to just be teaching, giving,

I think giving other men the language to navigate this and talk about what these things are.

There's some things that we have to talk about. One is accountability. How are we holding

accountable abusers and men who cause harm in our community? The rates of MMIW within Indian

country is outrageous. The rates of abuse in general perpetrated against women is far,

far too high. And a good number of those perpetrators are native men. What are we doing to pull

them in, to call that out? Or what are we actively, what needs to happen? We're certainly actively

learning that altogether. There's no blueprint. for this because we are this far along in how

society and how much we've been impacted and how much violence it is and how much of it's

normalized, how much of it is being protected and covered up, like it's so prevalent now. And that

men, I think, are also in a sort of state of shock. That's what I've been in, in a state of shock

when I find out about perpetrators, ones that I knew, ones that I love, that I'm processing in a

state of shock. This has to be multi-pronged. We need political leaders to care and there needs to

be policy. And you do see that. You do see, you know what I mean, with Michigan-American

Indigenous women, there's a lot of policies on the state side and the federal side. That needs to

be extended into, you know, the various tribal communities. The policy needs to be there. You know,

the resources need to be there for everything from providing the survivors and the families the

resources they need to heal and also restorative justice, too. That's another beast of a topic that

we... we can talk about a little bit later is restoring some of these men. We can't just keep

locking people away. Some of them are probably beyond, you know, repair, but with, with as severe

as it is, especially with what you're seeing in dominant society right now, you know what I mean?

But there's, there's, there's also the restorative aspect to it. I've been having this really,

really difficult internal conversation around the abolition movement. I've been, I've engaged a lot

of folks around abolition work and really holding the current.

carceral system, which is a racialized carceral system that operates,

that locks a lot of our people up. But then also have a conversation around how do we hold

ourselves accountable? What do we do with those that perpetrate harm? And it's challenging,

but we have to take that on. And I think that it's also like, I want to see more tribal leaders,

men, speak up on MMIW. We have some tremendous...

women leaders who are matriarchs who are leading the way and who should get all the flowers and

should get that support to amplify it. But we need to see more men in that space speaking up and

stepping to that plate. Restorative justice is a huge part. Yeah.

I had this great conversation one time we were at Sundance and we just booted out somebody who was

like, oh, that person is a history of, he's an abuser. We got to get him to leave. And so we asked,

told him he can't be here. But there was a great conversation around like, there's different

degrees like of trespass. Yeah. And I guess,

oh man, it's so messy. I want to be messy. I'm going to be messy on this. That's what this

conversation entails. All right. Traditionally, when we say somebody like, trespassed,

violated the terms of community to the highest degree, for our people, banishment was one of the

biggest ways. If you were not outright killed, you were banished because banishment was straight up

a form of death. Because where we live, where our people live, you can't survive on your own.

So banishment was a big way. And so we talk about banishment, but I struggle because I'm like...

If we banish every creepy guy in Indian country, if we banish every problematic man in Indian

country, there's like five dudes left. And that's also not good.

I'm not okay with that. So there is a process of how do we create a space to hold men,

but also that's also safe for women and others and all of us.

When does a man deserve... restorative justice at what, at which crime that he committed against

natural law, against law, against, against kinship. What degree does he deserve restorative justice

and for how long and who determines when he is suitable to come back in the community? Because I

think about that. I think to myself, you know, with the men that I knew that had committed these

crimes and I think, but they were hurt too. Someone did this to them. it's a cycle it's a pattern

that we have to we have to to break and we do need to put some attention toward that without taking

away centering all the survivors and victims i think that there's enough bandwidth that we should

have enough care and empathy in our heart to do that but not in a way that of course enables them

and in a way it's not in a way that that excuses them there's hard limitations and boundaries set

but it's a conversation that we have to begin to talk about is is how do we go about and i know

that there is programs out there that are implementing you know restorative justice depending on

the the the severity of it i mean all of it's severe it's all violence it doesn't matter you know i

mean from you know any degree of it it's all violence so but that's a big question when do we start

talking about You know, who's deserving of this and for how long? There's a fine line. There's a,

you know, it's a double-edged sword of like accountability and empathy. Yeah. Right? How do we

have empathy with the reasons why we are the way we are? Yeah. But at the same time,

told a line saying we need to be better. Yeah. And it fluctuates. It's hard. I encounter that all

the time. Yeah. Some years ago, I wrote a letter. It was a public letter. about a relative,

this guy that I knew and I called a friend, but he had done some pretty heinous stuff.

I was so nervous about writing a public letter, but I felt compelled because I was like, I'm

fucking scared to write this letter. But I feel like I need to do it because it's a responsibility.

If I'm going to walk the talk, I need to do this. I need to make a public declaration to say,

as a man, this is not right. I'm not perfect, but I think that's something that I want to see more

of. Yes. Yeah. And I shared with you too that there's information that I'm going to be coming out

being public with as soon as legal things are out of the way. And because I have that same, I have

that where I need to hold myself accountable. People should know about these things. We shouldn't

feel like we're going to face some sort of... you know, ostracization because we're coming forward

and we're talking about these people. And if people, you know, don't like it, then that, you know,

that's fine. If people want to throw, you know, slander lawsuits and things like that, I'll deal

with those type of things. But I agree with you. Like those are the type of things that we have to

get to that level. One of the biggest things that's really personal to me is in this conversation

around wellness, spirituality and ceremony is such a big part of that. But the big issue that I've

encountered is... a lot of perpetrators who are spiritual leaders. Yes, that are within it, yeah.

Who are men that are medicine men. Yes. Who are perpetrators. And people protect them.

And they get protected or they get excused and they say, well, we can't, like, what's going to

happen to our sunnets? What's going to happen to our ceremonial grounds? What's going to happen? I

don't care. Yeah. We can't have this. We have to break the cycle somewhere. You have to tear it

down. If we are truly, because in my heart, I'm a heart of hearts.

I'm a sovereignist. I believe in the dream and the vision of my people's exhibiting,

asserting their sovereignty to the fullest extent on their own terms. And I think a lot of us have

that same dream. In order to do that, we have to reimagine how we relate to each other.

And we can't do that unless we have this conversation about how do we hold each other accountable?

How do we hold men accountable in leadership? But also, how do we build a system to where we pull

men back in? How we reclaim what it means to be a man on our terms in a loving way.

I'm dealing with that right now. Our people are Sundance folks. How do we create a Sundance

ceremony that is a space for all, but also is a space also where we can pull our brothers back in

to that? Like, you know, it's so hard. It's hard. Same thing,

you know what I mean, with our, like I said, our men's group, you know, it's talking about, it's

repurposing the traditional war club for a new purpose of strength and healing. And what does it

mean to us is the men, it's a symbol of certain things. You carry yourself in a certain way. And I

tell guys, you know, you don't have to be perfect to come over. You don't have to be raised so

-called traditional. If you don't have those things and you are struggling, you should be here.

You shouldn't be here learning amongst this. You know what I mean? But once again, there's that. So

it's like, I've tried to practice calling and we'll get this guy over here. Let him hear a

different perspective early on. It might change his mind. He might change his behavior. So I think

that there's certainly degrees of that. Does that a solution for all men that perpetuate?

No, absolutely not. You know, but I think that, that that's something, you know. that I'm trying to

also implement on a lower level. Again, it's a beast. There's so many aspects that we can come in

and discuss about how we're going about this. Moving on to talking about these things got to be

political. It's got to be grassroots. It's got to be movements and campaigns. And it has to be what

guys like you and I who have what platform we do to normalize speaking on these things and continue

to doing the work grassroots. And it's living it as well. And then it's what I've always said to

men. It's like we need a code of ethics that we are to follow, that we get men to buy into and you

follow. And that we have to be able to have a system of checks and balances. holding accountable.

You know what I mean? Like have a protocol. How do you approach this man that you find out he's,

this guy is a public facing guy. I get people telling me all the time, you're still associated with

so-and-so and he just cheated on me too last month and this week and he's with this woman and

that woman and you're over here posting with him and talking about him. And I'm like, well, I

didn't know. Like men don't tell you this stuff sometimes. So I think that's like, that speaks to

another major thing, right? Is the culture. Yes. The culture that we have developed or how we

relate. There's a culture that we grew up, I grew up in, of sleeping around.

The culture of just hooking up. And especially, this is the biggest thing, is as a performer,

as somebody in the public face, like I was with 1491s, we're a child for 15 years,

and the biggest thing that we encounter time after time after time, one of the biggest challenges

is knowing that we are public, we're performers going into communities who people already have the

expectation that we're going to whore around. People already expect, oh, all performers,

men who come in here, They're just going to be sleeping around. They're going to be cheating on

women. They're, they're womanizers. Yeah. And me on a personal level, that's something I'm like,

I can't, I'm not being like, no, I'm not like, I don't get defensive because I realized that's a

lived experience. That's something I've seen. And if there's anything about what we need to do is

also breaking that, just calling it out and saying, Hey, that is not a healthy culture. Right.

That's something we can't, we can't be doing that. Yeah. The common experience amongst native

peoples, wherever you go, there's a conversation around fry bread. Yeah. There's a conversation

around the MC, wherever you go in Indian country, there's always the MC character that super Indian

man. Oh, and we talk on all that. And also the common experience of finding out you have brothers

and sisters you didn't know about. Yeah. Let's be real. That's like such a common experience of, I

met some, Oh yeah, that's when I first met my, I found out I had a sister. Yeah. Who was a week

older than me. Right. Yeah. Like those are experiences that in many ways I want to break.

Right. Of like, take that as a challenge. Do it. I have no, you have no idea how many times I went

to a community and people are like, oh, you're going to go party. Yeah. You got like a girlfriend,

you're going to snag up. I'm like, no. Yeah. One is I don't party. I've never drank in my life. I'm

not going to do that. But no. And it's like being very, like, I take it as like,

all right, I have to be very obvious here because that's how we break that cycle of like, no, I

don't, I'm choosing a different path. Yeah. yeah same thing i mean i try to express that like when

i go places you know i express i'm always saying i'm sober i can't i can't say it enough yeah you

know and introduce myself i introduce my wife and my kids and people i'll show pictures of it you

know what i mean like sometimes they don't believe you right yeah yeah they probably think yeah

they did oh come on you probably drink here and there don't you say no i don't you don't just have

a drink every once in a while i'm like no I'm like, do you, do you, do you try meth once in a

while? No. Well, same thing. I didn't see that one coming. It went deep real fast. Do cocaine,

couple lines. No, do a rail. And then they say, no, of course not. Well, exactly. Same thing. I try

to put that off, you know, right off the bat. So people see that and we normalize that those things

are value and those things are what we should aspire to is men for sure.

Coming back to your journey. You and Chelsea's journey here with the Seven Circles and your

wellness center. You and Chelsea together, what does your radical imagination conjure as you

envision your community, your peoples? Yeah, so right now we're building a house and that started

with a vision and a thought. We're in the process of building and we're also imagining.

a whole sort of like gym culture fitness type space that can be used for our work,

that can be used for doing our workshops and things like that and bringing people in to have it be

a space that serves multiple uses. So we're envisioning that and we're envisioning getting back to

farming. and things like that on our property where my grandfather used to grow,

where my father and my brother grows things. So we're envisioning that. We're envisioning

continuing to get closer to living on the land and together and envisioning our children.

I envision ourselves as elderly people. I envision my children older as adults. And I think I

envision this slow exodus over time from social media and stuff.

Making sure that we are leaving something for general native country or all people with what little

we think we can share through like authoring our books and ideas and sharing these things as

frameworks for various communities to put into practice. And so for me, it looks like...

exiting away from the social media thing and, and, and zooming in and focusing on my community,

on our people and, and, and putting more and more of this into practice in there. So, I mean, I

always just envision that's my vision. I always say, how do you want to think, feel and act in the

future? And, and, and for me, that's what I'm, those are the things I'm thinking about. I'm feeling

empowered and I have clarity and I'm going into old age, you know, so. I'm thinking of all those

types of things. So it's a vision I have. And I think every day is about stepping into that and

getting into that and living that. You're somebody that I could go in on this topic and along the

conversation on wellness and accountability and masculinity. And I just appreciate you so much.

And I love you for who you are. And I've known you for over 20 years.

And I think there's a lot to be said about that. But also there's a lot to be said of how we've

grown together in our own respective paths and now that we can share this space together. And

that's a relation I love because this is all my relations podcast and it's all about relationality.

Well, I appreciate you, brother. And I, you know, I love you as well. And thanks for having these

conversations. Cause like you said, like there's not enough of these conversations, not enough men

having these conversations and we barely scratched the surface. There's so much more. And to all

the listeners out there, there's so much more that we didn't get to discuss. That's how much of a

beast of this topic is that it has to go. It has to be ongoing, but, but thank you again, you know,

Dallas for demonstrating to what. what being a native man is and what a native father and what a

native husband is and demonstrating that you're walking that, you know what I mean? And there's so

many things that you do that you don't share them and that people out there in social media don't

know how you carry yourself and they don't know the things that you do. So, you know, I think

that's really commendable, you know, and, you know, you've inspired me and many men out there too.

So once again, thank you. I appreciate you for having this and hosting me here. I am grateful to

you and everything you do. So thank you for coming on today and we'll see you down the road.

Well, that's very sweet. I love to hear two Native men telling each other that they love each

other. It just gives me more fuzzy feelings.

Dallas, what a great conversation. I do want to return to this part where you say that men are

victims of patriarchy. You know, I got to tell you, I find it a little hard. It's a little hard for

me to digest as a woman. I got to tell you, you know, and the main reason is because there's been

many, many times where... I'm not allowed at the table simply because of my vagina,

you know, like where I just I'm not invited to the teepee. I can't speak on the longhouse floor or,

you know, in terms of like Western white patriarchy, you know, like not getting the job or even,

you know, systematically like the pay, like how much I earn, how much I get paid that or like my

expectations in the home, having to be a mom and a business owner. I don't know if everybody,

anybody, all the other ladies out there were listening to that and went, oh, what is he talking

about? But I want you to explain yourself.

Yes, I love it. This is great because actually listening to it. So folks don't know, we recorded

this conversation, my interview with Thosh some time ago. And so we're coming back to it. And even

me listening to it, I'm like, I guess I should have said more. I should have clarified a little

bit. on that because I agree. Women have and are currently systemically excluded from places of

power, leadership, and opportunity because of the very fact that they are women. And men as a

class, as a group, we have generally experienced benefits. We are beneficiaries of patriarchy,

right? Patriarchy benefits men. The point I'm trying to make is that even though men are

beneficiaries, we are also harmed by the structure of patriarchy. I'm not saying men are oppressed

the same way. That women are, or two-spirit relatives are, or other queer relatives are.

I'm saying that the same system that privileges men also imposes rigid expectations on them.

It teaches boys to suppress their emotions. It equates your worth with dominance.

And it punishes men who don't conform to these rigid expectations of masculinity.

We lose... our humanity in that process, because we're not able to respond to the world with the

full capacity of our heart and our spirits. We're dehumanizing ourselves. And when I say that,

that's where it came from, that position. Whenever we think about patriarchy as a social structure,

we have to cite the late bell hooks, you know, and... When they're talking about this,

they say, by supporting patriarchal culture that socializes men to deny feelings,

we doom them to live in states of emotional numbness. We construct a culture where male pain can

have no voice, where male hurt cannot be named or healed.

That was from the book The Will to Change. Patriarchy is not simply a system that grants men power.

It's also a system that wounds boys. It teaches us to become men who must sever themselves from

parts of their emotional lives. You know, love and tenderness and grief, vulnerability,

dependency become things to hide rather than parts of our humanity to cultivate and grow.

As a result, we become emotionally disconnected, not only from ourselves, but from our partners,

from our parents, our children, our communities. And that... That's an emotional narrowing that

happens that is a wound. That doesn't erase the privileges that men have. It doesn't erase the

harms that patriarchy causes them. But both can be true at the same time. I think that's where the

approach that I'm trying to bring to the conversation, but also in my endeavors in my life,

right? I'm trying to carry that. I'm like, all right, how do I process that and also teach my kids

that, my boys that, my daughters that? How do I teach myself that? Now, this is a hot take,

contentious or maybe, but I would also say that patriarchy as a system doesn't have a gender,

has no gender. It's a system, right, that promotes a certain belief and teachings. As such,

women can perpetuate it. Men can and men can resist it. And all of us have a stake in dismantling.

Hot take for sure.

you No, I see what you're saying, because I've seen my aunties and women that grew up with a

certain belief. I've seen the way that they enable the like my brothers and my cousins to

misbehave, really, you know, to weaponize their incompetence. You know, like so, you know,

like what is the pathway forward? I think what Dosh is doing, you know, having men's groups,

having uncles talk to young men about how to conduct themselves is a good way forward.

And so, you know, I'm. I'm grateful for this conversation and for you guys being vulnerable and

having it so publicly. And I hope that it does the work that it's meant to do out there. You know,

we make these podcasts. We do this work. We have these conversations. We don't know who's

downloading it. We don't know who's listening. We don't know what it does out in the community,

except for sometimes on the rare occasions, somebody comes up to me and says, I listened to your

podcast and this conversation helped me in so many ways. And so, you know, we do this. in an effort

to be of service to our communities and hope that it's helpful for you. And if it's not, you know,

delete it and never listen to it again.

But thank you for listening. Yeah. And donate to the Patreon.

I was really moved by that part in the conversation where you and... were saying, like, we don't

actually know how our ancestors conducted themselves. And I think that we often in our communities

weaponize culture and use it as a tool to oppress our own people.

When I went to New Zealand and I got to meet with Maoris and this Maori elder said to me, you know,

like, culture is meant to serve the people. Culture helps the people. And if the culture isn't

helping and serving the people, the culture has to change. And we have the power to change.

our behaviors and to change what is traditional you know like we establish the culture so i think

it's really empowering for us to take a look at at some of our behaviors some of our traditions

some of some of the ways that we are gathering and conducting ourselves amongst each other and ask

ourselves is this serving our people i think what you're saying is like just spot on idea the idea

that we are the creators of culture but also i want to pay attention and show love to us wanting to

retain our past, right? Retain the songs, remember the way we've done it, and to do the things that

our ancestors did. We want to make sure that we are honoring the gifts that we've been given,

honoring the songs that we've been given, the teachings that we've been given, but also make sure

that those teachings help us today. It's essential for us to remind ourselves that culture is not

stagnant. Culture must be dynamic in order for it to survive. Some folks are not willing to have

the conversation and many others are. And I would love to have the conversation with those that

are. Yeah. Come talk to Dallas.

I will answer all your problems.

Anyway, so, you know, then I guess that leads me to ask you, how did your life change when you

started presenting yourself and interacting differently? You know, like, what does that look like

for you? I have to say, I never felt comfortable in my masculinity. I never felt comfortable as a

man. I remember. Sixth grade, I was going to an Anishinaabe school called Baganagajik School.

It's a native school up on Cass Lake on the Leech Lake Indian Reservation. And I remember,

first of all, I'm Dakota. I'm going to school amongst a bunch of rowdy Anishinaabe people.

But I remember when they said, okay, all the boys go to the gym and all the girls are going to go

to sewing class. It's my first memory of what could only be described as an anxiety attack. Because

I got so...

nervous and stressed with the idea of going to the gym. And so I asked, can I go to the sewing

class? And I remember the teacher gave me like a weird look, like, what are you talking about? And

like, yeah, sure, whatever. And I had such immense relief because I was so, yeah,

I had anxiety about the idea of the performance of being an athlete. When we were,

I was in middle school and high school, the idea like, oh, basketball's life, Indian, we're res

ball, it's the way it is. I didn't know how to play basketball. I still am not a great basketball

player. And so the idea, like all of that expectation, I was like, no, I don't want to, I can't, I

can't. And so I think that has always carried with me, this kind of uneasiness being around other

men. So that seed's always been there. And one thing I, when listening to the conversation with

Thosh, I'm like, oh, I want to like, just kind of clarify or at least expand on it is like. My

wife, I feel so indebted to her and I feel there's guilt. I'm going to be honest. I carry some

guilt of like the weight that she's had to carry in our relationship. Not only be the woman and the

mom that she needs. to be, but also to be the wife. And I put her into a position where she had to

teach me in many ways what it meant to be a father or to be a husband.

It's important to notice that when we, me and my wife met, I had to learn about one, not being so

selfish and like really being mindful of what she needs for her own sense of safety and trying to.

maintain that, be conscious of that every step of the way. I didn't have that lesson,

that understanding. The other one is just emotional labor. We don't realize how much emotional and

mental labor that we place upon women in relationships. I love the question because it's real.

How does it actually show up? How do we actually do this in person? How do I do this not only in

the big world of like, oh, community change, all that, but no, how does it actually show up in my

relationships? Because that's the first circle for a lot of us. partners, the people we live with.

How are we showing up to dismantle the inherent dysfunction of patriarchy in that inner circle?

And then how do we build out from there? I just want to be upfront and honest. I'm not perfect in

that, but I'm trying to do my part. And that's where we're trying to educate all of us is that we

all have the capability to start in that inner circle and build out. Yeah. Yeah.

Aho.

Aho.

Well, this is the last episode of your takeover. Did you like podcasting Dallas? How are you doing

with it?

I loved this experience, but also it's so damn stressful. I don't know how you guys have done it

all these years. Matika, hats off to you, your wonderful co-host, to all the team that made this

happen. Pancho on the back end here helping with the edits. Well, we look forward to hearing you on

the air again soon in whatever way that presents itself, Dallas. We hope that you continue to do

this. I do anyways. I think you're a great journalist and a great thinker. I think that the people

want to hear from you, Dallas.

Give the people what they want.

And thank you, relatives, for listening. Until next time. Until next time.

I raise my hands to you all and wish you the very best.